question on upper bound primary key of type int

I have several tables in a deployed database in which the primary key is of type int, and autoincrements by 1 each time a record is added. My question is, since ints are 32-bit, what happens when its value reaches 4,294,967,296? I know that seems like an extrememly large amount of records, but when we imported the data into the database it started at key value 1,000,000. I don't know how to make it use lower numbers which are currently not being used (numbers below 1,000,000), and I am worried I will have problems when I reach the upper bound. What kind of problems could this cause? Should I change the primary key's type?

Thanks!

the upper bound is somewhere around 2.1 bill. Yes when you reach that limit your application will fail. You cannot insert any new data. You could put some alert in place to identify or predict when the storm is coming. you could create a job that gets the MAX(ID) every week and you can monitor the growth of the table. Once the ID reaches closer to 2 bil you can increase your frequency of monitoring. To fix it, you need modify the column and change it to BigInt. Please do not even bother to try ALTER TABLE...ALTER COLUMN...the server will hang.|||Ok, I'll just modify the primary key type. Thanks for the response.sql

question on the primary key

Let say I have 10 columns and 4 of them is a primary keys.
The question is where should I place these 4 columns (with
primary keys)? Is it at the most left?
I take it you mean that the 4 column together comprises the PK (i.e., a composite PK, you can only
have one PK but it can be over several columns).
Technically, it doesn't matter. However, when humans read database schemas, it seems natural to have
the PK as the left-most columns. I.e., it is an esthetic issue.
Tibor Karaszi, SQL Server MVP
http://www.karaszi.com/sqlserver/default.asp
http://www.solidqualitylearning.com/
"mrizal@.padusoft.com.my" <anonymous@.discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:084e01c48362$1c886130$3a01280a@.phx.gbl...
> Let say I have 10 columns and 4 of them is a primary keys.
> The question is where should I place these 4 columns (with
> primary keys)? Is it at the most left?
|||Hi,Tibor
Did the OP mean also sorting columns within PK? I mean if you have primary
key on A,B,C,D ,does it matter a place of the column?
"Tibor Karaszi" <tibor_please.no.email_karaszi@.hotmail.nomail.com> wrote in
message news:eRjvV02gEHA.1656@.TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> I take it you mean that the 4 column together comprises the PK (i.e., a
composite PK, you can only
> have one PK but it can be over several columns).
> Technically, it doesn't matter. However, when humans read database
schemas, it seems natural to have
> the PK as the left-most columns. I.e., it is an esthetic issue.
> --
> Tibor Karaszi, SQL Server MVP
> http://www.karaszi.com/sqlserver/default.asp
> http://www.solidqualitylearning.com/
>
> "mrizal@.padusoft.com.my" <anonymous@.discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in
message
> news:084e01c48362$1c886130$3a01280a@.phx.gbl...
>
|||The first column in the composite index (key) should be the one, you most
often query on.
HTH,
Vyas, MVP (SQL Server)
http://vyaskn.tripod.com/
"mrizal@.padusoft.com.my" <anonymous@.discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in
message news:084e01c48362$1c886130$3a01280a@.phx.gbl...
Let say I have 10 columns and 4 of them is a primary keys.
The question is where should I place these 4 columns (with
primary keys)? Is it at the most left?
|||Good point Uri, I read the question as "between all columns in the table". Dan posted a good reply
if the question is "order within the PK columns".
Tibor Karaszi, SQL Server MVP
http://www.karaszi.com/sqlserver/default.asp
http://www.solidqualitylearning.com/
"Uri Dimant" <urid@.iscar.co.il> wrote in message news:u$ThY62gEHA.636@.TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> Hi,Tibor
> Did the OP mean also sorting columns within PK? I mean if you have primary
> key on A,B,C,D ,does it matter a place of the column?
>
> "Tibor Karaszi" <tibor_please.no.email_karaszi@.hotmail.nomail.com> wrote in
> message news:eRjvV02gEHA.1656@.TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> composite PK, you can only
> schemas, it seems natural to have
> message
>

question on the primary key

Let say I have 10 columns and 4 of them is a primary keys.
The question is where should I place these 4 columns (with
primary keys)? Is it at the most left?I take it you mean that the 4 column together comprises the PK (i.e., a comp
osite PK, you can only
have one PK but it can be over several columns).
Technically, it doesn't matter. However, when humans read database schemas,
it seems natural to have
the PK as the left-most columns. I.e., it is an esthetic issue.
Tibor Karaszi, SQL Server MVP
http://www.karaszi.com/sqlserver/default.asp
http://www.solidqualitylearning.com/
"mrizal@.padusoft.com.my" <anonymous@.discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in mess
age
news:084e01c48362$1c886130$3a01280a@.phx.gbl...
> Let say I have 10 columns and 4 of them is a primary keys.
> The question is where should I place these 4 columns (with
> primary keys)? Is it at the most left?|||Hi,Tibor
Did the OP mean also sorting columns within PK? I mean if you have primary
key on A,B,C,D ,does it matter a place of the column?
"Tibor Karaszi" <tibor_please.no.email_karaszi@.hotmail.nomail.com> wrote in
message news:eRjvV02gEHA.1656@.TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> I take it you mean that the 4 column together comprises the PK (i.e., a
composite PK, you can only
> have one PK but it can be over several columns).
> Technically, it doesn't matter. However, when humans read database
schemas, it seems natural to have
> the PK as the left-most columns. I.e., it is an esthetic issue.
> --
> Tibor Karaszi, SQL Server MVP
> http://www.karaszi.com/sqlserver/default.asp
> http://www.solidqualitylearning.com/
>
> "mrizal@.padusoft.com.my" <anonymous@.discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in
message
> news:084e01c48362$1c886130$3a01280a@.phx.gbl...
>|||The first column in the composite index (key) should be the one, you most
often query on.
--
HTH,
Vyas, MVP (SQL Server)
http://vyaskn.tripod.com/
"mrizal@.padusoft.com.my" <anonymous@.discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in
message news:084e01c48362$1c886130$3a01280a@.phx.gbl...
Let say I have 10 columns and 4 of them is a primary keys.
The question is where should I place these 4 columns (with
primary keys)? Is it at the most left?|||Good point Uri, I read the question as "between all columns in the table". D
an posted a good reply
if the question is "order within the PK columns".
Tibor Karaszi, SQL Server MVP
http://www.karaszi.com/sqlserver/default.asp
http://www.solidqualitylearning.com/
"Uri Dimant" <urid@.iscar.co.il> wrote in message news:u$ThY62gEHA.636@.TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl..
.
> Hi,Tibor
> Did the OP mean also sorting columns within PK? I mean if you have primar
y
> key on A,B,C,D ,does it matter a place of the column?
>
> "Tibor Karaszi" <tibor_please.no.email_karaszi@.hotmail.nomail.com> wrote i
n
> message news:eRjvV02gEHA.1656@.TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> composite PK, you can only
> schemas, it seems natural to have
> message
>

question on the primary key

Let say I have 10 columns and 4 of them is a primary keys.
The question is where should I place these 4 columns (with
primary keys)? Is it at the most left?I take it you mean that the 4 column together comprises the PK (i.e., a composite PK, you can only
have one PK but it can be over several columns).
Technically, it doesn't matter. However, when humans read database schemas, it seems natural to have
the PK as the left-most columns. I.e., it is an esthetic issue.
--
Tibor Karaszi, SQL Server MVP
http://www.karaszi.com/sqlserver/default.asp
http://www.solidqualitylearning.com/
"mrizal@.padusoft.com.my" <anonymous@.discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:084e01c48362$1c886130$3a01280a@.phx.gbl...
> Let say I have 10 columns and 4 of them is a primary keys.
> The question is where should I place these 4 columns (with
> primary keys)? Is it at the most left?|||Hi,Tibor
Did the OP mean also sorting columns within PK? I mean if you have primary
key on A,B,C,D ,does it matter a place of the column?
"Tibor Karaszi" <tibor_please.no.email_karaszi@.hotmail.nomail.com> wrote in
message news:eRjvV02gEHA.1656@.TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> I take it you mean that the 4 column together comprises the PK (i.e., a
composite PK, you can only
> have one PK but it can be over several columns).
> Technically, it doesn't matter. However, when humans read database
schemas, it seems natural to have
> the PK as the left-most columns. I.e., it is an esthetic issue.
> --
> Tibor Karaszi, SQL Server MVP
> http://www.karaszi.com/sqlserver/default.asp
> http://www.solidqualitylearning.com/
>
> "mrizal@.padusoft.com.my" <anonymous@.discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in
message
> news:084e01c48362$1c886130$3a01280a@.phx.gbl...
> > Let say I have 10 columns and 4 of them is a primary keys.
> > The question is where should I place these 4 columns (with
> > primary keys)? Is it at the most left?
>|||The first column in the composite index (key) should be the one, you most
often query on.
--
HTH,
Vyas, MVP (SQL Server)
http://vyaskn.tripod.com/
"mrizal@.padusoft.com.my" <anonymous@.discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in
message news:084e01c48362$1c886130$3a01280a@.phx.gbl...
Let say I have 10 columns and 4 of them is a primary keys.
The question is where should I place these 4 columns (with
primary keys)? Is it at the most left?|||Good point Uri, I read the question as "between all columns in the table". Dan posted a good reply
if the question is "order within the PK columns".
--
Tibor Karaszi, SQL Server MVP
http://www.karaszi.com/sqlserver/default.asp
http://www.solidqualitylearning.com/
"Uri Dimant" <urid@.iscar.co.il> wrote in message news:u$ThY62gEHA.636@.TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> Hi,Tibor
> Did the OP mean also sorting columns within PK? I mean if you have primary
> key on A,B,C,D ,does it matter a place of the column?
>
> "Tibor Karaszi" <tibor_please.no.email_karaszi@.hotmail.nomail.com> wrote in
> message news:eRjvV02gEHA.1656@.TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > I take it you mean that the 4 column together comprises the PK (i.e., a
> composite PK, you can only
> > have one PK but it can be over several columns).
> >
> > Technically, it doesn't matter. However, when humans read database
> schemas, it seems natural to have
> > the PK as the left-most columns. I.e., it is an esthetic issue.
> >
> > --
> > Tibor Karaszi, SQL Server MVP
> > http://www.karaszi.com/sqlserver/default.asp
> > http://www.solidqualitylearning.com/
> >
> >
> > "mrizal@.padusoft.com.my" <anonymous@.discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in
> message
> > news:084e01c48362$1c886130$3a01280a@.phx.gbl...
> > > Let say I have 10 columns and 4 of them is a primary keys.
> > > The question is where should I place these 4 columns (with
> > > primary keys)? Is it at the most left?
> >
> >
>

Question on Row Count Transformation

Hi all,

i'm using Row Count Transformation downloaded from http://www.sqlis.com/93.aspx to generate surrogate key.

in my data flow, i have OLE Data Source connected to Row Count Transformation connected to SCD.

i've configured ok and the package ran without error.

my problem is my surrogate key column won't generate the next increment number if i run the package the 2nd time and there is new row in the dimension, e.g.

Id BusinessKey BusinessName

1 RDO Radio
2 MAG Magazine
3 TV Television
1 INT Internet } added new row from source

did i miss something? please help. thanks.

You need to set the Start Number (seed) to the max ID + 1 in your table, so that it starts incrementing at the proper key.

You might try using an Exec SQL in the control flow to store the max id in a variable, then set the seed through an expression on the data flow component.

|||

I believe in the control flow, before the data flow, you will have to "select max(id) from table" and store that in a variable. Then in the data flow, you'll have to use expressions to set the starting number to that of the variable plus one.

Also, it's the "Row Number Transformation," not the "Row Count Transformation" just to be clear for those tuning in. SSIS comes with a "Row Count Transformation" built-in.

|||What John said above... I was typing while he was posting.|||

opss.... ya.... it's Row Number Transformation.. sorry for the mistake... thanks for the replies....

in this Row Number Transformation package, start number(seed) cannot be filled with expression... so can i say that this package can only be used to generate surrogate key if it's run only once?

thanks again...

|||

minority80 wrote:

opss.... ya.... it's Row Number Transformation.. sorry for the mistake... thanks for the replies....

in this Row Number Transformation package, start number(seed) cannot be filled with expression... so can i say that this package can only be used to generate surrogate key if it's run only once?

thanks again...

Right click on the transformation and select properties. In that window you will find the "Expressions" box. Expand that and go from there.

|||

sorry Phil, i don't see any expressions box/row in the properties window... :?

is this component depend on the sql server service pack installed in the machine ?

|||

This is the built in Properties window for Visual Studio, not the component level UI form.

For Data Flow components, you don't see the Expressions on the component, you must first select the Data Flow Task, just click the icon if in Control Flow, or just click the background if you are in the Data Flow design tab. The Properties grid will no show properties for the task, and since is only tasks that can expose expressions, they should now be visible.

All component expressions are actually listed at the top of the properties grid, or can be accssed via the Expressions property as with normal tasks.

|||

DarrenSQLIS wrote:

For Data Flow components, you don't see the Expressions on the component, you must first select the Data Flow Task, just click the icon if in Control Flow, or just click the background if you are in the Data Flow design tab. The Properties grid will no show properties for the task, and since is only tasks that can expose expressions, they should now be visible.

Darren is correct, which is why I shouldn't answer questions unless I'm in front of SSIS to validate my response. I should've known better that you access data flow object's expressions via the control flow.|||

Thanks Phil, Darren, John...

i just found out someone has posted the same question before.

http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=403771&SiteID=1

sorry for repeating. previously i've been searching for row count transformation and couldn't find the answer i'm looking for. thanks for answering...

i still couldn't get the answer.

i've assigned the max(id) value to a variable and place the variable+1 in the expression box.

works fine, no error but instead of returning the next number for new values, the id column for the dimension starts incrementing again..

e.g.

1st run:

Id BusinessKey BusinessName

1 RDO Radio
2 MAG Magazine
3 TV Television

2nd run:

Id BusinessKey BusinessName

4 RDO Radio
5 MAG Magazine
6 TV Television
7 NWS Newspapers

i've already set the Id as fixed attribute in SCD... :-? :-(

|||

I don't think the ID column should be referenced in the SCD component as a fixed attribute. That's just the surrogate key you are assigning to the dimension, right?

From your example, I'm guessing that the BusinessKey column is what defines a row as being a match for the existing row.

|||

yes, the id column works as a surrogate key, shouldn't it be a fixed attribute?

i defined the BusinessKey column as Business Key under Key Type in SCD while Id column is defined as Not a key column under Key Type.

|||I think you might want to add the row number transformation between the SCD and its Insert destination. You shouldn't have the primary key involved in the SCD -- only the BusinessKey. When a new record comes in (as a result of a historical attribute change or simply a new record) it will get assigned the next counter out of the row number transformation when it is placed between the SCD and the OLE DB insert destination.|||thanks everyone...

Question on OUTPUT feature of DML

I need to audit inserts/updates/deletes on active tables to audit tables on a set of tables that have foreign key constaints with the update cascade and delete cascade defined. I can explicitly code the delete/update on the parent table to perform an OUTPUT to an audit table, but how do I OUTPUT the cascaded delete/update that happens on the child table because of the FK constraint with delete cascade defined without having to resort to triggers.

Thanks,

-chiraj

You might want to check into the use of DML triggers for this kind of issue, but this is not something that I have used much.

Dave

|||

Thanks for the response.

Using DML triggers is a no-brainer. I have used them all my life. I was wondering if it could be accomplished with the OUTPUT clause. I believe it is a limitation of the OUTPUT clause unless someone can show me otherwise.

Thanks,

-chiraj.

question on inserting a record on sql server with identity column as key

Hi, All:

Please help. I use sql server as back end and Access 2003 as front end
(everything is DAO).

A table on SQL server has an identity column as the key.

We have trouble on adding records to this table using the following SQL.

strSQL = "INSERT INTO myTableOnSQLServer (A, B, C, D, E) SELECT A, B, C, D,
E FROM myTableonAccessLocal"
db.execute strSQL

The schema of the table "myTableOnSQLServer" and the schema of the table
"myTableonAccessLocal" are all the same except that the "myTableOnSQLServer"
has an identity column (ID). The key of the "myTableOnSQLServer" is "ID" and
the table "myTableonAccessLocal" does not have a key.

When we try to run the query, it gives errors indicating the key is violated
or missing.

Should I figure out the autonumber for it first and then add to the SQL
server table?

Many thanks,

HSHongyu Sun (sun@.cae.wisc.edu) writes:
> Please help. I use sql server as back end and Access 2003 as front end
> (everything is DAO).
> A table on SQL server has an identity column as the key.
> We have trouble on adding records to this table using the following SQL.
> strSQL = "INSERT INTO myTableOnSQLServer (A, B, C, D, E) SELECT A, B, C,
D,
> E FROM myTableonAccessLocal"
> db.execute strSQL
> The schema of the table "myTableOnSQLServer" and the schema of the table
> "myTableonAccessLocal" are all the same except that the
> "myTableOnSQLServer"
> has an identity column (ID). The key of the "myTableOnSQLServer" is "ID"
> and the table "myTableonAccessLocal" does not have a key.
> When we try to run the query, it gives errors indicating the key is
> violated or missing.

Could you please post the exact error message?

--
Erland Sommarskog, SQL Server MVP, esquel@.sommarskog.se

Books Online for SQL Server 2005 at
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/pr...oads/books.mspx
Books Online for SQL Server 2000 at
http://www.microsoft.com/sql/prodin...ions/books.mspx

question on inserting a record on sql server with identity column as key

Hi, All:
Please help. I use sql server as back end and Access 2003 as front end
(everything is DAO).
A table on SQL server has an identity column as the key.
We have trouble on adding records to this table using the following SQL.
strSQL = "INSERT INTO myTableOnSQLServer (A, B, C, D, E) SELECT A, B, C, D,
E FROM myTableonAccessLocal"
db.execute strSQL
The schema of the table "myTableOnSQLServer" and the schema of the table
"myTableonAccessLocal" are all the same except that the "myTableOnSQLServer"
has an identity column (ID). The key of the "myTableOnSQLServer" is "ID" and
the table "myTableonAccessLocal" does not have a key.
When we try to run the query, it gives errors indicating the key is violated
or missing.
Should I figure out the autonumber for it first and then add to the SQL
server table?
Many thanks,
HSThere are two options depending your answer to this question:
Do you want you myTableOnSQLServer table to have the same value of ID from
myTableonAccessLocal.
1. If NO. Then don't specify the ID column in your INSERT INTO statement.
2. If YES. Use SET IDENTITY_INSERT command to allows explicit values to be
inserted into the identity column of a table. Like this:
SET IDENTITY_INSERT myTableOnSQLServer ON
insert into ....
SET IDENTITY_INSERT myTableOnSQLServer OFF
Hope it helps.
"Hongyu Sun" <sun@.cae.wisc.edu> wrote in message
news:dq7fe7$f6b$1@.news.doit.wisc.edu...
> Hi, All:
> Please help. I use sql server as back end and Access 2003 as front end
> (everything is DAO).
> A table on SQL server has an identity column as the key.
> We have trouble on adding records to this table using the following SQL.
> strSQL = "INSERT INTO myTableOnSQLServer (A, B, C, D, E) SELECT A, B, C,
D,
> E FROM myTableonAccessLocal"
> db.execute strSQL
> The schema of the table "myTableOnSQLServer" and the schema of the table
> "myTableonAccessLocal" are all the same except that the
"myTableOnSQLServer"
> has an identity column (ID). The key of the "myTableOnSQLServer" is "ID"
and
> the table "myTableonAccessLocal" does not have a key.
> When we try to run the query, it gives errors indicating the key is
violated
> or missing.
> Should I figure out the autonumber for it first and then add to the SQL
> server table?
> Many thanks,
> HS
>

Question on FOREIGN KEY CONSTRAINTS

I've recently implemented a whole bunch of foreign key constraints in a database. As a result I have issues every time I want to truncate a table to perform data loads.

Is there an easy way to tell the system to ignore these constraints for the term of a data load or truncation of data?

thank youwe had an entire thread (http://www.dbforums.com/t1100892.html) on that topic just the other day

check it out and let us know if you still have questions

Question on encryption/ keys/ certificates/ etc.

SQL2K5
SP1
I was able to sucessfully create a Master Key, create a Certificate, create
a Symmetric Key and assign it to the Certificate, insert encrypted data, and
then decrypt/ read that data. Pretty cool stuff. But Im reading up on the
topic and Im under the impression that I should also have needed too:
Set Force Encryption to Yes.
Configure the DB engine to use a Cert.
Reboot the box.
But I didn't have to do any of that. I just went and verified the settings
and thats not how SQL is configured. Im obviosuly missing something pretty
big here, can someone please assist?
TIA, ChrisRThat's 2 different things, what you've been doing is encrypting data stored
in the database. The other stuff you are talking about is encrypting traffic
from clients to SQL Server and vice versa. If you don't have that
requirement then don't worry about it. In SQL 2005, standard SQL logins are
encrypted anyway by a self generated certificate however general traffic
to/from the server (batches/results etc) are not. They are 2 completely
different and separate things.
HTH,
Jasper Smith (SQL Server MVP)
http://www.sqldbatips.com
"ChrisR" <NotAChance@.ms.com> wrote in message
news:esEA%23%23AtGHA.1876@.TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> SQL2K5
> SP1
> I was able to sucessfully create a Master Key, create a Certificate,
> create
> a Symmetric Key and assign it to the Certificate, insert encrypted data,
> and
> then decrypt/ read that data. Pretty cool stuff. But Im reading up on the
> topic and Im under the impression that I should also have needed too:
> Set Force Encryption to Yes.
> Configure the DB engine to use a Cert.
> Reboot the box.
> But I didn't have to do any of that. I just went and verified the settings
> and thats not how SQL is configured. Im obviosuly missing something pretty
> big here, can someone please assist?
> TIA, ChrisR
>|||As mentioned, I was missing something pretty big. ;-)
Thanks Jasper.
"Jasper Smith" <jasper_smith9@.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eaL$0QCtGHA.4784@.TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
> That's 2 different things, what you've been doing is encrypting data
stored
> in the database. The other stuff you are talking about is encrypting
traffic
> from clients to SQL Server and vice versa. If you don't have that
> requirement then don't worry about it. In SQL 2005, standard SQL logins
are
> encrypted anyway by a self generated certificate however general traffic
> to/from the server (batches/results etc) are not. They are 2 completely
> different and separate things.
> --
> HTH,
> Jasper Smith (SQL Server MVP)
> http://www.sqldbatips.com
>
> "ChrisR" <NotAChance@.ms.com> wrote in message
> news:esEA%23%23AtGHA.1876@.TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
the[vbcol=seagreen]
settings[vbcol=seagreen]
pretty[vbcol=seagreen]
>

Question on encryption/ keys/ certificates/ etc.

SQL2K5
SP1
I was able to sucessfully create a Master Key, create a Certificate, create
a Symmetric Key and assign it to the Certificate, insert encrypted data, and
then decrypt/ read that data. Pretty cool stuff. But Im reading up on the
topic and Im under the impression that I should also have needed too:
Set Force Encryption to Yes.
Configure the DB engine to use a Cert.
Reboot the box.
But I didn't have to do any of that. I just went and verified the settings
and thats not how SQL is configured. Im obviosuly missing something pretty
big here, can someone please assist?
TIA, ChrisRThat's 2 different things, what you've been doing is encrypting data stored
in the database. The other stuff you are talking about is encrypting traffic
from clients to SQL Server and vice versa. If you don't have that
requirement then don't worry about it. In SQL 2005, standard SQL logins are
encrypted anyway by a self generated certificate however general traffic
to/from the server (batches/results etc) are not. They are 2 completely
different and separate things.
--
HTH,
Jasper Smith (SQL Server MVP)
http://www.sqldbatips.com
"ChrisR" <NotAChance@.ms.com> wrote in message
news:esEA%23%23AtGHA.1876@.TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> SQL2K5
> SP1
> I was able to sucessfully create a Master Key, create a Certificate,
> create
> a Symmetric Key and assign it to the Certificate, insert encrypted data,
> and
> then decrypt/ read that data. Pretty cool stuff. But Im reading up on the
> topic and Im under the impression that I should also have needed too:
> Set Force Encryption to Yes.
> Configure the DB engine to use a Cert.
> Reboot the box.
> But I didn't have to do any of that. I just went and verified the settings
> and thats not how SQL is configured. Im obviosuly missing something pretty
> big here, can someone please assist?
> TIA, ChrisR
>|||As mentioned, I was missing something pretty big. ;-)
Thanks Jasper.
"Jasper Smith" <jasper_smith9@.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eaL$0QCtGHA.4784@.TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
> That's 2 different things, what you've been doing is encrypting data
stored
> in the database. The other stuff you are talking about is encrypting
traffic
> from clients to SQL Server and vice versa. If you don't have that
> requirement then don't worry about it. In SQL 2005, standard SQL logins
are
> encrypted anyway by a self generated certificate however general traffic
> to/from the server (batches/results etc) are not. They are 2 completely
> different and separate things.
> --
> HTH,
> Jasper Smith (SQL Server MVP)
> http://www.sqldbatips.com
>
> "ChrisR" <NotAChance@.ms.com> wrote in message
> news:esEA%23%23AtGHA.1876@.TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> > SQL2K5
> > SP1
> >
> > I was able to sucessfully create a Master Key, create a Certificate,
> > create
> > a Symmetric Key and assign it to the Certificate, insert encrypted data,
> > and
> > then decrypt/ read that data. Pretty cool stuff. But Im reading up on
the
> > topic and Im under the impression that I should also have needed too:
> >
> > Set Force Encryption to Yes.
> > Configure the DB engine to use a Cert.
> > Reboot the box.
> >
> > But I didn't have to do any of that. I just went and verified the
settings
> > and thats not how SQL is configured. Im obviosuly missing something
pretty
> > big here, can someone please assist?
> >
> > TIA, ChrisR
> >
> >
>

Question on design with Identity columns

Normally when I have a "Many-toMany" or linkage table where the primary key consists of a foreign key from two different tables, I do not bother to make a separate identiy column instead.
Does anyone see a reason why an identity column would be more or less desireable ? For example
Table Person
PK - PersonID
Table Car
PK - CarID
Table PersonCar
PK (PersonID, CarID)
Or would it be better to make an Identity Column such as PersonCarID so then the table would look like the following:
Table PersonCar
PK - (PersonCarID)
FK - PersonID
FK - CarID
Create Unique Constraint on Person and CarID
Any feedback is appreciatedHave a "quick" read of...
http://forums.asp.net/1015568/ShowPost.aspx
|||

mru22 wrote:

Does anyone see a reason why an identity column would be more or less desireable ?

My opinion, which I am not willing to defend to death, mind you, isthat an additional identity column is preferable. I've learned tohate composite keys on tables. I prefer my UPDATE, DELETE, etc.statements to have a single variable in the WHERE condition. Whencommunicating a specific record to another developer, or making a noteto myself, it is a lot easier to be able to refer to a single value asa key. Database purists will certainly scoff, and perhaps evenrise up in outrage. But the additional identity column has servedme well so far.
|||

Another typical counter-identity worry is that as they auto-inc then all the new data 'bottlenecks' at the end of the indexes (when your identity is involved in an index). Although that can work for you depending upon your solution.

|||I'm leaning toward having the additiona identity field. If I do so I think I would make it non-clustered since I would never be doing any joins on i and it would never been used in any queries.
I have heard pros and cons for having the identity remain Clustered but I think it would best serve me to move it to one of the other columns which is less unique. Or maybe only have the PK as a clustered index and no other indexes on the table since there is only 3 columns total and the optimizer may prefer index scans vs. index seek anyway.|||

mru22 wrote:

I would never be doing any joins on i and it would never been used in any queries.

So then what will be using the field for?
|||

It would just be used to have the PK represent a single column vs. multi column. No other reason, that's why I was contemplating using it in the first place. Typically I have not when I have "many to many" tables.
So instead i would just have the two keys, one from each of the parent tables. With that being said, I notice that the OR Mappers seem to work more easily when you define a single column primary key and if I end up going that route then I may consider the single column pk.

|||

mru22 wrote:

With that being said, I notice that the OR Mappersseem to work more easily when you define a single column primary keyand if I end up going that route then I may consider the single columnpk.

In that case, you would indeed be using the field in queries, behindthe scenes. Adding a field which would never be used orreferenced of course would make no sense, that's why I questioned you.:-)
|||

mru22 wrote:

Normally when I have a "Many-toMany" or linkage table where the primary key consists of a foreign key from two different tables, I do not bother to make a separate identiy column instead.
Does anyone see a reason why an identity column would be more or less desireable ?

The fact that you're asking this question shows that you have a total lack of understanding on relational databases. You need to go to back to the fundamentals. Actually, I'm guessing you never started at the fundamentals and just dived right into SQL Server and started programming. That's OK, a lot of people do that.
If you are being paid to program, you have a professional obligation to do it right instead of making it up as you go along. I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy if all your electrician had a multimeter, wire trimmers, and eletrical tape but didn't know his Volts from his Watts.
Go pick up Date's INTRODUCTION TO DATABASE SYSTEMS. You can get an old edition (it's a text book and doesn't change too much) for $5 or so.|||

Sorry but I do have a complete understanding of databases. And no I did not just pick SQL server and start programming. Your insults are not only a waste of posting to this board by providing no true value to the discussion but that's ok because there will always be people like you.
As far as this thread why do you go ahead and explain which one you prefer and why or would you rather reply with another insult ?

|||

tmorton wrote:

mru22 wrote:

With that being said, I notice that the OR Mappers seem to work more easily when you define a single column primary key and if I end up going that route then I may consider the single column pk.

In that case, you would indeed be using the field in queries, behind the scenes. Adding a field which would never be used or referenced of course would make no sense, that's why I questioned you. :-)

I agree completely and again that is how I normally do it. But I have seen others add the identity column so I just wondered if there was some underlying reason for doing so. I think not in this case other than they wanted to have a one column key.|||I suspect it is as simple as wanting a one column key 'cause it makes using things like object dictionaries far easier when you've only got to worry about one value. I know I do that.|||

mru22 wrote:

Sorry but I do have a complete understanding of databases. And no I did not just pick SQL server and start programming. Your insults are not only a waste of posting to this board by providing no true value to the discussion but that's ok because there will always be people like you.
As far as this thread why do you go ahead and explain which one you prefer and why or would you rather reply with another insult ?

A "complete understanding of databases"? Perhaps you mean CODASYL databases? Or XML databases? Certainly not relational.
In the relational world, we don't do things like add artificial pointers to relations. In fact, that's a fundamental concept of relational databases: no pointers. The whole point of relational databases is to use values on their own to key and relate. Not meaningless pointers.
Your sample schema shows you don't get that, and therefore lack an understanding of that fundamental concept. CarID? What on earth is that? The standard that the rest of the world is VIN. It's right there, physically stamped on every car. In multiple places. It cannot be changed.
Ditto for PersonID. First off, the name "Person" is a very poor naming choice for an individual: companies have Employees and Customers/Clients, schools have Faculty and Students. No organization has generic "Persons." When you model what the actual data is, you find that they already have identifiers there for you. Employee_Num or SSN. Student_Num. Etc. No need to use an artificial pointer.
As I stated earlier, you do not understand these fundamental concepts of relational databases. If you did, you would never need to ask such a question. But what's worse is that you *think* you do.
I do not intend to be insulting. Your question is tantamount to someone asking on forums.carpentry.net: "I normally use a hacksaw when I'm building stuff for my customers ... but what tool do you guys think I should use? A hacksaw or a mitre box? I'm trying to pound in a nail ..."|||Alex makes some fair points, however, I'm sure he'll agree that even pure database design will conceed to the practical natures of a solution, for example de-normalised data. What I'm poining out is that there is *never* a abs. correct answer, the only true answer is, "it depends". However, I do think it would be well worth your time to invest in an introduction to relational database design, at least when you take the decision to use an artifical key you'll know the reasons why ;)
|||So you are saying in Relational Databases meaningless keys such as Identity Columns are bad? VIN For example includes characters thus cannot be an integer or numeric data type.
I would not want VIN as the PK. I typically avoid varchar or char datatypes as primary keys. And yes I typically use identity columns as Primary Keys
In your carID example I would Instead put VIN as unique and would add an Identity column as the PK. Furthermore for anytable that had the a reference to the Car table, It would store a smaller more efficient integer as opposed to varchar. I know that storage isn't much of an issue today as say 10-20 years ago but I still find that a more efficient design.
Plus what if the vin number was incorrect and had to be changed to another unique vin number? This way the change would not have to propogate through any tables that referenced car other than the car table. Same with Employee SSN. While that would be numeric by removing dashes I still prefer a meaningless key.
In your person example you indicated taht What kind of name is person ? Well Employee is a person, Student is a person. You would either have a type table to know which is which but what happens is a person can be both an employee and student and you need to differentiate ? You sure are not going to make two records, so either you have many-to-many table between Person and Person Type or you would have Person and then Employee and Student tables where the PK from the Person is also the PK in the Employee and student table. I would do this if there many attributes that they did not share in common otherwise having the many to many with types would make more sense if they shared all other attributes in common.
I understand that many do not like synthetic keys but I often prefer to keep my PK meaningless when Possible. I do understand the arguments against it but do not always agree especially when using non-integer values as the Primary key.